If you are new to the Liar Mini-Series you can catch up here:
Part I – Need Some Advice
Part II – Planting The Seed
Part III – Cultivation
Okay, so I was going to title this “Liar Conclusion,” but for some leeeetle reason, I don’t seem to think this will be the last time I’m dealing in lies and punishment. And let’s totally put aside the fact that there will be two other boys someday learning Mommy’s Big Lesson. By all accounts, many of you had it right when you proclaimed Jamis one smooth criminal. He’s smart and sweet and consciously pushing the limits more than I ever realized he could.
Because I’m still fighting this wicked, wicked cold I decided to have the talk with Jamis after school yesterday because I was pretty sure I’d barely make it to bedtime. He finished his homework and I set the little boys up on the computer in the office. When I returned to the living room I announced to Jamis that we were going to have our talk, and he was not fazed one bit. In fact, he was quite chipper when he said, “Okay!” and put his homework in his bag and walked his bag back to the mudroom. He joined me seconds later on the couch and this is how it all played out.
Do you know what I want to talk to you about?
The twistables.
That’s right. The colored pencils you took from the car. We talked about it, Jamis. You decided to bring the crayons to school.
Oh. Right. I’m sorry.
And you lied to me.
*He puts on the squiggle face that says I’m trying really hard not to understand what you are talking about with this one, Mom.*
You spilled the coffee and you lied about spilling the coffee.
Uh…no…I…
I think at this point I raised my eyebrows as far as they could go and reminded my son that he picked up the check from the center console and placed it into the cup holder. I remembered the advice from one of my commenters who had said “don’t give him the opportunity to lie again.” So instead of asking him what he did, I told him. And to this he said,
Oh. Right. Sorry.
I’m more angry with you for lying to me than for actually spilling the coffee, Jamis.
Sorry.
You will always get in more trouble for lying.
*Silence*
I gave you the opportunity to tell me the truth and you lied about it repeatedly.
Sorry.
I’m very disappointed.
*Silence*
I understand why you lie. You are afraid you will get in trouble.
*Silence, but he finally looks into my eyes. I’ve finally shown him that I get why he lies.
I understand that you didn’t ask me to take the colored pencils to school because you were afraid I would say NO, right?
*He nods*
Well, you are right. I would have said NO. I would have said NO because we already talked about it. But that’s not a reason to go behind my back and just do what you want to do. I am your mother and I make the decisions.
Sorry.
I know, I know, riveting, right? Absolutely riveting conversation between an overworked, overtired, overeverything mom and her 7-year-old son. There was quite a bit of silence between us and all I could think was, “No, Sarah, don’t create a little Husband, Jr. who just sits there all silent during a heavy conversation. You have to get him to speak. ASK something.” And a light popped on in my mind. Comments from Wolfie and Amy were bouncing around in there, humming thoughts to me. And words sprang from my lips.
Do you know what trust is, Jamis?
Yes.
And who do you trust?
You…Dad….GG….
And what does that mean when you say you trust us?
I know what it is but I can’t put it into words.
Now, the kid’s got a point. Trust is kinda, sorta, really hard to put into words. But I tried. And then we moved on.
Dad and I want to be able to trust you, too. We want to know that you are going to do what we ask you to do and NOT do what we ask you NOT to do.
Okay. Sorry.
…Okay. We need to decide on some punishment. What do you think?
Take away the trampoline for a month?
Well, that seems like a lot, how about a week? We’ll take away the trampoline for a week.
*INSERT TEARS HERE*
And Jamis, if you continue to lie to us, we will start taking away everything. Soccer games and birthday parties. Everything in your room will go and you will have to earn it back, piece by piece.
Fine, take away the birthday party.
Really? Be honest, Jamis, you REALLY want me to take away the birthday party? You want to play games, here? Because I will. I’ll take it away. You want to test me and see how far I will go?
Well…instead of…
Instead of the trampoline? Now you’re upset because I’ve taken away the thing you suggested I take away and you want to barter punishment with me? You want to make a DEAL? ON YOUR PUNISHMENT?
*He starts to nod his head, as if I’m catching on…*
No! Absolutely not.
*Insert DRAMATIC crying, fist-clenching, and body-throwing into the arm of the couch*
*Insert a mother fed-up, rolling her eyes, putting herself in check because really? she’s supposed to feel badly that her kid made up his own punishment like a test? A test to see if she would really follow through…and when she DOES he gets THIS upset about it? *
I got up off the couch. I left Jamis to a puddle of tears and two balled-up fists. I started a bath for the little guys and when I turned back to the stairs to retrieve Max and Ethan, there was Jamis, kicking a box on the stairs, tossing a pillow, being “MAD.”
What’s going on?
I’m MAD!
Hmm. Please don’t kick things on the stairs.
And then he went upstairs and got in the bath and fought with his brothers a bit, and giggled with his brothers a bit, and all was right in the world again. For him.
But here I am. Still thinking about trust. Circles of trust. And wondering if anything at all got through to my kid. If he feels that he can trust me at all! And if I can trust him.
I have no answers. Only time will tell. But I’ll be watching him like a hawk, this much I’m sure.
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Well done Mama.
Well, it’s not a grand finale, but such is life…nothing is ever wrapped-up, tied-up pretty in my life. EVER!
I think you did GOOD.
And you’re going to have to do it again, which you know already. But your 7-year old is no different than any of us, Sarah. How many times have we beat ourselves up, as adults, when we ignore lessons that we’ve already learned?
I don’t recall where I heard this, or when. And I can’t tell you how many times I’ve asked myself this, and then answered. Here’s the gist:
Question: How many times do you have to learn the same lesson?
Answer: As many as it takes.
Adults make the same off-the-mark judgment calls over and over, until we eventually learn. Do we really expect more from our 7 year olds, or our 17 year olds? We shouldn’t.
You’ll cycle back to this discussion, and you’ll find more ways to ask about trust. You’ll talk about reliance on people, and behaviors that show that you can count on each other. That he can count on you, his dad, GG, his aunt, his cousins, and so on. And in a year or two, as the little ones get older, he’ll wear the mantel of “responsible big brother” setting the example. Something he can take pride in, and how much you will count on him for that. (Always good to play it up a little!)
I know. It’s an exhausting process for the parents – especially when one is typically the disciplinarian and dispenser of the major life lessons; we are their teachers in everything.
It’s a shame it wasn’t in REAL WORLD PARENTING Appendix to the “What to expect when you’re expecting” handbook. Oh yeah. Doesn’t exist. Who’d want to be a parent then??
*Insert weary sigh here ________.*
So. You did good.
And his acting out “MAD” was good as well.
That’s one I have a tough time with. Shutting up when my kids (legitimately) express anger. Knowing that it is healthy for them to let it out, even if it’s uncomfortable for me to be around it.
Now who draws the bath for you tonight, so you get some unwinding, and some giggling?
“*Insert DRAMATIC crying, fist-clenching, and body-throwing into the arm of the couch*”
That part?? That was me when my kid was mad at me for punishing her. LOL!
I definitely feel your pain! I know it’s frustrating, but I think (I hope) that our kids will eventually figure it out. Right??
Sarah, I thought it went pretty well. It will be something that you will have to revisit from time to time, but, I have also used the “you pick your punishment” route, only to have the same reactions from my own son.
I agree with Wolfie, you need someone to draw your bath and unwind some…Take care of yourself and GET RID OF THAT COLD!!!!
Spring’s a’coming!
Nice work, Mama. Especially the part of trust. It’s good to set this theme up, as it will come around again and again.
I like that he originally suggested taking away the trampoline for a month, and you were able to make it only a week (which is still a long time for a 7 year old). Nice gesture there.
I also love that he went and took a bath with his brothers, fighting and laughing, and that set things right again. Those three, like most siblings, are bonded in such a strong way.
Good parenting, Sarah! It is work, hard work but you done good.
Keep your eye on the trampoline this week as Jamis seems like a tester and he may test you again. But other than that, relax until you need that inner strength to do this all again.
bwahaha…do you know my kid or what? He has already asked to use the confiscated crayons AND…AND…AND…….he’s tried to bargain some trampoline time out of me. “Just a half hour or an hour, Mom?”
Um. NO. Nope. Sorry. Not gonna happen. No.
Thanks for following along as I try to figure all this shit out. I know it doesn’t make for the most riveting and well-written of blog posts, BUT I have really enjoyed all the feedback here. I too often feel like I am making all these big-little decisions on my own and I don’t exactly feel equipped to make them on my own. So this place, Momalom and all of you, help me tremendously.
HOW’S THE 13-MILE BOD FEEL??
WOOOOHOOO!
The 13 mile bod is feeling good. I went for an 8 mile run today and it was a tough one – lots of hills, steep hills – managed to average about 14 min miles even though I walked about 1.5 miles of it.
And yes, like all our kids, I knew he would test you!!! You will look out the window – probably over the weekend – and my guess is he will be mid-bounce.
Wow. Well done. I think I might just send you my kids. The idea of going through that is exhausting, even though I’m currently healthy.
I love how you allowed him to be mad in the end. You didn’t try to reason it, or curb it. You just let him work it out.
Oh Shoot. You are dealing with it in your own world, girlie. And remarkably well, it sounds like. The thought just keeps playing in my mind: “Parenting is hard, yo!”
Cause it is! And it’s not gonna get any easier anytime soon. And I kinda sorta need the support of this community now. This community that I have kinda sorta learned to depend on to help guide all these big-little decisions.
Brava! I think you handled it brilliantly.
I love these posts – the real-ness of them – and the incredible comments that epitomize what I love most about this community: the sense of camaraderie, the lack of judgment. Love. Love. Love.
And on a completely NOT LIAR related note… your husband clams up when its time for a serious conversation (read: argument)??? Mine does too, and it drives me crazy! Crazy enough that I fantasize about ramming something into his mouth to drag the words OUT! Any my middle child, the one who I swear is exactly like ME.. well, he is exactly like me except for this one character trait in which he is exactly like my husband! Grrrr… TALK TO ME ALREADY… sorry to hijack your post – this struck a chord with me, clearly… ;)
And another SHOUT OUT to Nicki! (OMG, I hope she’s soaking somewhere while telepathically commenting on blogs from her tub.)
THIRTEEN MILES!! OMG.
(PS – Sarah – when they’re taller than you are, you don’t have to say no, nope, nyet, not gonna happen, etc. You just take the car keys. Easy.)
Thanks, BLW! And, when taking the car keys doesn’t work because they have a second set stashed somewhere because they really know you, a screw driver removes the plates from the vehicle.
Gosh, My boys are 2 and 5…I am going to relish every day that I don’t have these “big kid” issues. Thanks for sharing – I am learning through your experience.
Parenting is tough! But because you are thinking about these moments, have taken time to ask for help, sat down and told him that you care – you are being a GREAT mom! So feel good and keep working at it. I think being a parent teaches us so much about life and ourselves.
I’m so impressed. You were Strong. You were the Mom not the Friend (as I always end up being). You definitely taught a tough lesson, one that I truly believe he’ll learn from. I also do the “choose your punishment” route and I also end up bartering, negotiating, and then losing the battle.
I’ve loved all of these posts because I see so much of me in you and so much of Hannah in Jamis. We’re all in this together.
I hope you’re feeling better!
I love how dramatic little boys are. The world likes to talk about girls and drama, but they fail to see these smart little boys.
Good luck on the next seven days of full-on bargaining. ;)
Wow…I’m not a Mom yet, and I have ZERO idea how I’d handle a situation like this. Mostly I’m just amazed at how much of a conversation you had–and provided such a teaching moment. It’s so complicated, isn’t it? Teaching adult lessons to these little guys. But it has to happen, and it sounds like you handled it strongly.
Jamis is a smooth operator! I LOVE that he tried to negotiate his punishment. You must have wanted to rip your eyeballs out, but man, he’s a challenge!
You did a great job! And, like Nicki said, keep an eye on that trampoline!
I just caught up on this saga, having missed parts 2 and 3 over the past couple of days. I think you did a great job. As you’ve said, it won’t be the last time you fight this battle, but you’ve certainly added some tools to your toolshed. Congrats on following through and making it a moment about teaching as much as punishing.
It takes a village, no? I’m glad we have this village.
I really want to say how important it is to stick with the talks and punishment if needed. They have to learn it early on. About what it means to not tell the whole truth as to not get into trouble for something they think in their minds they deserve.
Also, dealing with the anger or disappointment in the outcome of their punishment. What always worked best for us was to tell them they need to take it (their anger) to their room. We even suggested punching a pillow to take out their frustration. Then they would be allowed to come back around the rest of the family when they had “re grouped” themselves.
Like others here, I think you did a good job handling this tricky situation. You turned this series of incidents into a *conversation* about the little and the big, you conveyed the gravity of these matters in a way that your son is able to understand. I think this will be an ongoing question for you – and for all of us – and I think we would all be thrilled to handle these parental speed bumps so honestly and gracefully.
Thanks for sharing this story with all of us. It’s good to be able to commiserate and I got some great thinking points, too!
I don’t have any real advice, just a story to share.
When my girls were younger, one of them had a real problem with lying – bordering on the pathological. Once we caught on, we assumed (each time she spoke) that she was lying. When she figured that out, she began telling the truth. It took a long time for us to trust her word, but there did come a day when we were able to.
At the same time, one of her sibs had the reputation of NEVER lying. It was quite easy when someone would accuse her of lying to reflexively say, “No way. _____ doesn’t lie”.
Wanting to have that kind of legend helped her sister to stop.
Nowadays, they both have the truth as their standard. Unfortunately, their sister has now picked up pathological lying from her boyfriend.
It NEVER ends. . .
You know I side on the “firmer” side, but this conversation sounded great. I am copying some of your words next time. Kudos.
Wow. I am so GLAD it went as well as it did. You are awesome for keeping your cool. Jamis is awesome for getting it.
As you mentioned, this will not be the last time. However, both of you learned something from this. That is what parenting and growing up is all about.
GOOD JOB. Seriously. Amazing. You rock. Especially for a mom feeling not so hot. It may not have gotten through on the level you had hoped for but most certainly some of it did. And you are strong, and consistent and loving, so if he didn’t get it this time, he will next time.
We haven’t had to deal with lying yet. Though I’m sure it will come and I *almost* wish it would come sooner rather than later so that the lessons can be learned before they become teenagers. When I dole out punishment of any form it comes with an “I love you, it’s your behaviour I’m rejecting”. Keeping my fingers crossed. Parenthood is tough.