Okay, friends. Today’s post is not about pretty writing and aha! moments. I need some advice. Here are the details:
On Monday afternoon I took the boys to the grocery store. There was a sale on Crayola products in the aisle of the frozen foods section. Go figure. In an effort to quiet the beasts, I tossed three items in the cart: some crayons, markers and colored pencils.
Upon leaving the store my 7-year-old, Jamis, made a weak and false attempt at helping me load the groceries into the car. It was all so that he could just find and steal the new goodies from the bag and fondle them on the ride home. I was pissed and took said goodies away. Help or don’t help, but don’t do it in disguise. The items were placed in the glove compartment of my van.
Jamis wrote himself a reminder note to get the items from the car the next morning. I specifically told him that he could choose only one thing to bring with him to school, and the other two would be staying at home. He chose the crayons and hopped on the bus, happy to share his new shiny box with his classmates. I tucked the other two things back into the glove box to keep them out of view from the little boys.
It is now two days later and about 30 minutes ago Jamis kissed me goodbye and went out the back door to retrieve his backpack from the car before heading to the bus stop. A minute later he reappeared at the front door.
“What are you doing? You are going to miss the bus!” I shuffled him back out the door and followed him.
“But I have to tell you something,” he said.
“What!?”
“A cup of coffee spilled in the car and got all over a check that was there.”
My eyebrows raised and my voice got tight. “You mean, YOU spilled it?”
“No, I didn’t. I don’t know how it happened.”
At this point there is a lot of quick back-and-forth over the matter. I’ll limit this to Jamis’s part.
“It was like that when I got in the car…I just opened the door and the wind blew it over…I don’t know how it happened…”
Yup, 3+ excuses as to why there is coffee spilled all over the center console of my van and a check for $700 is now dyed a lovely shade of brown. Like the last incident I wrote about which involved some candy-sneaking, I gave Jamis the opportunity to tell me the truth: “Just tell me that you did it, Jamis. Tell me the truth.”
Alas, no truth was told. He fled to the bus stop.
I grabbed a towel and went to the car to clean up the mess. There was no reason for Jamis to be in the front seat to get his backpack, which would have been in the third row of seats. So I reached across to the glove box and pulled out the lone remaining package of Crayola goods, confirming my suspicions. Infuriated, I started for the bus stop to tell Jamis just how disappointed I was and to take the colored pencils from his bag. But just as I rounded the corner he stepped up on the bus and found his seat among the tall green rows.
Now, what to do? He lied. He stole. It’s not the first time.
I know he is only 7 but this is unacceptable to me. I know that he didn’t ask permission for the colored pencils because he assumed I would say no. And he is right. I would have. I had already specified that only one item would make it’s way to school. The others would stay at home for everyone to be able to use.
I know he lied because he was afraid I’d find out about the pencils, and that I would be mad about both the stealing and the spilling. He is right, again. But knowing all of this doesn’t excuse any behavior.
So here I sit wondering how severe the consequences will get this time. I hate this job. But I hate lying and stealing even more. Lying is my NUMBER ONE. I feel like someone has tromped all over my face with a muddy pair of army boots when I’ve been lied to. It doesn’t feel good. I won’t stand for it.
So what’s the punishment, friends? How the hell do I make my point and help my kid realize that lying will always, ALWAYS land him in a boatload more of trouble?! I know he’s got a small sense of responsibility, because he TOLD me about the spill instead of letting me find out about it myself. I know he’s pretty sick and tired of getting in trouble, but I’m even more sick and tired of doling out the trouble.
Graciously accepting all advice. Please!
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Not in any order… take away the crayons AND the pencils and inform he he has lost his right to any of them. He will have to earn your trust back before he is allowed to use them again – however, his siblings CAN and WILL enjoy them because they did not LIE to you or try to steal them. Sit down when you are not angry with him, and explain how important it is that family members are able to trust each other, and how fragile trust really is – he’s 7, he will get it to an extent. Tell him he needs to write you an apology letter for lying, stealing and destroying something of yours (the check), and then come up with ways he can earn back your trust – that will be the hardest part! Maybe a week of doing what you ask the first time you ask, having you rifle through his back pack every day for 2 weeks to be sure he is not stealing something (give him a sense of how much he will NOT like being watched 24/7) and perhaps too mean, but I’d have him sit in the next room while I colored/played with/created with the siblings and those amazing crayons & pencils. Oh – my kids say I’m mean… just so you know! :-)
Mean like a fox. Great ideas! I especially like the letter idea. Kept in the Vault and whipped out upon future misdeeds. (He tends to “forget”. He’s a boy, ya know?)
Ummmmm…can’t you just make Daddy deal with it? No? Well, shit.
I hate that part of mothering, too. I’m never sure if the punishment fits the crime or if I’m overreacting.
He definitely gets the items taken away for a specified period of time. And a stern talking to.
He’s a smart little guy, though. He knows when Mommy is going to say no. Unfortunately.
Wow. Tough.
I like both sets of advice above, depending on the kid and what he responds to. I am so afraid of how I am going to deal with this kind of thing as my kids get older. I will be very similar to you – Red Faced Pissed when I get lied to. Oh that will not be good.
I look forward to coming back and see what other suggestions people have. I am so glad you asked!
Sarah, I don’t have much to offer you except to say that I think Samantha’s advice sounds spot-on. IEP is only 15 months, so I haven’t had to fight these fights yet. I will say this, though: I went through a lying phase in the 8th grade and among the punishments was the 24/7 Big Brother thing that Samantha mentioned and it was completely humiliating. Probably worse for a 14-year-old than a 7-year-old, but as the big boy in the family I suspect it will hit him hard to be treated like a baby for a while.
Good luck!!
Man, that’s tough. My daughter recently told her first lie (she’s still a toddler), so I did a lot of googling about it. Here’s one of the best links I found: http://www.education.com/magazine/column/entry/Lying/. Hope it helps … at least a little. If not, scribbling furiously with the markers might help you blow off some steam! =>
So here’s what stinks. When you have to teach your kid a big lesson, doesn’t it actually make it harder on you than on them? That’s probably why we’ve gotten to this point. Because I am so totally exhausted by three kids. The last couple of years with the two little boys (so close in age) have whomped me. And I am still trying to hold down a full-time job. And I am still the MOTHER and trying to hold down a chaotic house. And I feel guilt and empathy and frustration for my oldest kid day in and day out, but nothing I do effects any lasting change.
Thank you all for your thoughts thus far, and I will let you know what happens. It doesn’t help matters right now that I’ve got a wicked cold and that my husband is working late AGAIN and that my house looks like a tornado hit and that the damn puppy still isn’t completely housebroken.
Life
just
does
not
stop
and
I
am
forever
tired.
I so get what you are saying here. I get so frustrated with any semblance of lying (daughter, almost 5) or sneakiness, but half the time I am so wiped out from working FT, keeping the house together and chasing after the other 2 (twin boys, almost 3) that I can’t form coherent sentences or thoughts. I struggle with punishment fitting the crime or more importantly, resonating with the child and having an EFFECT. I will let the moms who have some mental fortitude left to give you advice and then I may refer back to it as well. :) Just wanted you to know that I get it. I so get it. (((((hugs))))
Right or Wrong, I always use the “What would GOD think”? He is always watching. You know lying is a S I N. Which scares the crap out of them. Of course another suggestion is pick a fitting form of punishment to the incident.
Ugh. We are having the same issue with 11 year old daughter. Though she’s taken it steps further to include forgery.
I’m at my wit’s end.
Can I just stop time so it doesn’t get worse? Forgery? GAH!
Oh, Sarah, I wish I could offer some sage advice. I can offer understanding. Working full-time and mothering full-time is dang hard. So is having 2 kids close together. I guess this is one of those moments when I wish I had wings, I could fly to where you are and give you a little break. I don’t see any wings in the future, but can thoughts fly? I hope so.
Yes, thoughts can fly. And thank you. I feel them wrapped around me.
:)
Trust. Somehow it was hammered into me at a very young age that trust was THE MOST important thing in my relationship with my parents–my mom in particular. And if I broke that trust, boy was I going to have to go to hell and back before my parents even considered letting me begin the work of repairing the damage. Perhaps it’s because the onus was on me and my behavior that made it so effective. I was the one who made the choice to f* up. I was the one who destroyed the trust. It was as if they had given me the magic red button that set off a nuclear bomb. If I told the truth, humankind would be spared. If I lied, well, I was responsible for the consequences. I don’t remember being grounded, or having anything taken away from me. The fear of my parents withholding their love, or of becoming an outsider because I was not someone they could trust,was enough to scare me straight. Remember Robert DeNiro’s Circle of Trust in Meet the Parents? Corny, but it sure worked on me!
The Circle of Trust. Yes, yes. yes.
And this: “If I told the truth, humankind would be spared. If I lied, well, I was responsible for the consequences.”
Love it!
I know that this is a universal issue between not only parents and kids, but humankind in general. And I know that it is only just beginning. And that is what makes me feel so out of control.
I want so badly to create that circle of trust. I want my kids to know what is expected of them, follow the guidelines and, in the end, reap the rewards of an honest, open and loving family. This parenting thing is getting too hard, and I am, quite clearly, not getting enough rest. :)
1. Sarah, wishing some good restorative sleep for you.
2. Yeah, what Amy said. We’re not at this point with our daughter yet, she is only three, but the same type of approach was used with my brother and I. More disappointment than anger. Utter disappointment if we did something we weren’t supposed to and the approach worked, it worked very well. Love was never withheld, but the disappointment was palpable. It is a fine line though. Now as an adult sometimes my father still tries to apply this approach when he doesn’t like something I’m doing, and that feels more like emotional blackmail. He was more judicious and rational 30 some years ago I think. :)
Okay. So how on earth do I make that disappointment palpable? I am no joker when it comes to being mad or disappointed in something my kid has done. I put on a pretty good face. I know my kid knows it in the MOMENT, but it doesn’t deter him from acting out again.
So what do I do? Wear a sign that says “I’M SERIOUS”?
Because that’s just about where I’m at here.
I think you need to a.) recognize that he DID come and tell you and b.) the important lesson for your son is that you are not STUPID and you’ve caught him doing something he knew he should not be doing. I see this as more of an impulse control problem – which little boys are prone to (I have three too). I’m not saying be soft on him, but I also don’t think it should be a huge “punishment” deal either. He’s a little kid and of course he wants the shiny new toy. It’s better to instruct then condemn. Tell him what he should’ve done and remember to praise for at least telling you the coffee spilled.
The punishment has to fit the crime so I agree with others who suggested not allowing him to use the crayons and pencils for a period of time.
Update: I found the “goods” in his backpack and took them away. As of this moment, I have yet to find a punishment I am happy with and, being sick as a dog, I have postponed until tomorrow. I can’t think straight right now. But I wanted to say that I agree about impulse control, and I agree about crime fitting punishment, and I agree that he did a good thing in telling me about the spill. I know he has a conscience. What is most infuriating is that we are talking about a kid who is sweet as can be underneath all of this. He is growing up and learning from others and trying to figure out his way in the world. I know that I am his instructor and it is a daunting task most days. And exhausting. Just exhausting.
Thank you so much for your words.
i find the hardest part about punishment (or discipline or whatever you want to call it) is how bad do you want to punish YOURSELF. it’s all really good to tell your kid that he’s lost his TV for a week; it really sucks ass when said kid is asking you every 2 minutes if he can please watch kid’s tv. or worse, walking into the living room and seeing the tv on because he has completely ignored what you said. WHEW. so yeup, i get it. how do you punish a kid without making your own life a living hell? i don’t know yet. all i know is that if this was my kid, i would take away everything he had to draw with; paper, pens, pencils, felts, the whole nine, until he earned them back. (truthfully, i would have to hide it or lock it up. my kids are not well behaved enough to keep away from it if i just said, “don’t touch.”) kids’ greediness and the assumed RIGHT to help oneself to things that don’t belong to one *really* irritate me. i am a big believer in allowing kids to feel what it feels like, so i think the whole, “how do you feel when your sister goes in your room,” (or even better, “why don’t your sister and i go up to your room right now and start going through YOUR things,”) parallel would be drawn. other than that, some yelling and some “i’m disappointed in yous” would happen.
honestly, i have no idea what i’m talking about. i’m pretty much talking out of my ass with this parenting stuff. i get frustrated with the constant repetition of bad behavior: getting into things they aren’t supposed to, doing things they are not allowed to do, and TOUCHING MY STUFF. grr, that’s the worst one.
I’m too tired for anything more coherent than a copy and paste, so here:
“honestly, i have no idea what i’m talking about. i’m pretty much talking out of my ass with this parenting stuff. i get frustrated with the constant repetition of bad behavior…”
To this I say “WORD, SISTER!”
This one is a total toughie. And yes:
Parenting. is. exhausting.
Honesty was also #1 in this household. Do something wrong? Own up to it, because if I cannot trust you, we’re nowhere. Don’t tell me or lie? I’ll find out, and the consequences will be far worse.
Most kids go through a stage where they take things (it’s the adults who call it stealing), and where they don’t tell the truth, or the complete truth (without fulling understanding the larger consequences of that).
And I think, as parents, that’s what we have to remember. Little kids don’t get the big picture implications of lying (and 7 isn’t that little but it’s not a “big kid” either). To a little kid, a lie is a way of avoiding trouble. Short term. Even if there’s understanding that there may be trouble with the lie (Mom will be mad, I’ll be punished), the repercussions of a lie aren’t understood.
Every kid being different, only you know if this is worth a shot, Sarah.
I explained why lying was worse than almost anything, in our house. And saying “if you lie I can’t trust you” doesn’t explain what “trust” means or how important it is, in terms that a kid can understand. My approach: “What if I told you I would be somewhere, and you counted on it, but it wasn’t true because I decided to go somewhere else? What if you expected me to be there, and I wasn’t, how would you feel? Would you believe me if the next day I said the same thing? Or would you be worried that maybe I would be there, and maybe I wouldn’t?”
That’s just a quick example. I’m sure you could find something more specific to Jamis, and more appropriate. The point is to give examples for him to imagine and feel of what lack of trust means. And lies create lack of trust.
As for the punishment, my kids knew my ire. They heard it in my voice, and saw it in my eyes. The actual “punishments” were considerably less than my look and voice. I’d take away the crayons and the other object, obviously, and maybe some “probationary time” other duties (chores he dislikes for example) for a period of time.
And more discussion. About trust. About who he trusts and how good it feels. About what a lie feels like when you’re on the receiving end. And I’d tell him nonetheless that you love him, and you know he can do better. And you’re counting on him for that.
I wouldn’t invoke God. Under any circumstances. (That’s just me.) I’ve been on the receiving end of that sort of thing, and to be frank, all it did was scare the crap out me in a pretty horrible way. Lies take place between people. I believe they need to be addressed between people.
This is really good, Wolf. ALL of it, but especially THIS: “And more discussion. About trust. About who he trusts and how good it feels. About what a lie feels like when you’re on the receiving end.”
In asking my kid who he trusts and how he feels about that I can get a better feeling for how much of this whole trust and honesty conversation he even understands. And I need that. Because there’s a lot of talking around here and most of the time I think I am just spilling out words and mopping them up MYSELF later! Does nothing sink in?
Wolfie, you’re the best. This is a wonderful post. Especially the part about how kids don’t fully grasp the concepts of trust and lying. Piaget would say they don’t get it till they’re 12!
And, withdrawing yourself is way worse than withdrawing things – although some of that is necessary.
And, No God! I used to get totally freaked out thinking I was being watched all the time – picking my nose, on the pot, sleeping. The ridiculousness of that hit me at about 7. A post for another time.
I like BigLittleWolf’s advice. It’s something to address, but don’t overblow it. And give him a chance to talk about why he took them even though he knew he shouldn’t. But really, this is one little incident. Kids do take things. I had a 4-year-old who turned incorrigible literally overnight and we almost went berserk. She’s 7 now and fairly fine. Although, we still sleep with our car keys…
Oh, you’re right. It’s one little incident. And next year he’ll have stolen something bigger, or lied about something that really hurt or affected someone. I’m so totally not the kind of parent to overreact, and I guess I’m trying to figure out the standards by which my kids, and I, should live.
If nothing else I get to hear about how people sleep with their car keys…and why! I don’t think I will ever stop saying it, but this internet bloggy thing is freakin’ crazy. I love the advice and the stories I have received here. And I also hope that through blogging this I have a chance to help some other poor mama who has no idea what she’s doing, either.
:)
Sarah
I absolutely have NOTHING to add. Hannah is 5 and is starting with some little lies here and there and I’m petrified and helpless. I am here for you though… to vent, to cry to run ideas by and I can maybe at least let you know if I think your punishment fits as a nonbiased party. I definitely think the punishments are harder on us at this point. I am just constantly feeling BAD.
Good luck and please let us know how you make out with this. In the meantime, I’ll be taking all of the advice offered here as well!
It’s exhausting, isn’t it? The feeling “bad.” The trying to figure out if your punishment is too easy or too hard? I will be sure to write a follow-up post. Maybe a few. Hell, I should start a series. “kids and lying.” I could put my kid’s face on it and tell him that kids everywhere are counting on him to tell the truth! Ha! Love it!
And be careful what you wish for, I might just start calling you more often!!!
Well, my kid has ADHD so these things happen more often than not. I’ve learned to defuse the problems by changing *my* behavior.
For instance, I wouldn’t leave the Crayola goods in the car if I knew Javi was going to be in it. If he has a pack of pencils and I only want him to use one, I take the other nine away (rather than expect him to leave them alone). I never show him something or buy him something before he is allowed to use it. If there’s a reward, we discuss it and plan for it but there’s no tangible thing until he can touch it and take it away to covet.
Again, my son has a neurological disorder that makes impulse control something that’s out of his control. It’s not a behavioral choice. So, I have to give him the best environment in which to thrive. Otherwise, it’s fight and stress and frustration for everyone.
So I guess my advice (for the future) is to remove the temptation until he is old enough to resist his impulses. And I’d tell him, “I will not be buying anymore of this thing you love because you made a choice to break the rules and lie about it.” (We emphasize that acting on impulses is a choice (even if it feels like you’ll die if you don’t reach out and touch that thing or sing that song or snap those fingers) to reduce the victim complex/refusal to accept responsibility.)
More than anything else, I wish you good luck and lots of patience!
Thank you, Kelly. You are right, it IS a choice. A very poor choice. It gets at the root of our main problem with Jamis right now: he does what he wants to do when he wants to do it. He is a good, sweet kid. And he is incredibly affected by his two little brothers, I get that, but strutting his stuff and forgetting what the heck we talked about yesterday is so NOT COOL with me. Doing what he wants to do regardless of Parental Rules is NOT COOL with me. I know he’s only 7, but…if he starts the lying now about the little things I am worried of what it could become, you know? I know that I have a chance to control more of his environment, like you with Javi, and affect some change that way, but to be honest, Jamis is a smart boy, no ADHD, and I just want him the GET IT. Do you ever just want your kid to GET IT? And do that thing that you’ve been asking them to do for ages?
Gah, I’m sorry, I’m venting. And it’s not even 7 am. But I woke up to all these great comments and I am fueled up again. Did not speak with Jamis last night as planned. Too sick, too tired. Everyone has a wicked cold here. But this weekend I will take your good wishes of luck and patience and roll with it, baby. I want to be the parent my kid needs me to be in all of this. You know that feeling?
Thanks, Kelly.
Sarah
Yep, I get it. It can sometimes be so infuriating to be the parent of a child with ADHD because he doesn’t get it and you can do all you want and he still won’t get it. So it’s a completely different situation.
However, I am the parent who took her kid TO THE JAIL and LEFT HIM THERE when he stole another kid’s piece of candy in kindergarten. I arranged it with the police department ahead of time and told my kid, “You want to be a thief? You’ll live with the thieves.”
Suffice it to say he hasn’t even attempted to take something without asking (and of course we’ve set up an environment that discourages impulsivity). If he starts getting out of line, I wonder aloud, “What is the number for the jail, again?”
I won’t tell you specifically what to do b/c you know your kids best and which consequences will make an impact and which won’t. You know my recent experiences with Ben so you know as much I hated it, I believe in making BIG statements early in life so you don’t have to do it later on. I know a woman (the WISEST woman I know) who once cancelled an entire family Disney trip because her 7 year old stole 34 cents out of her father’s wallet and lied about it. Entire trip. Cancelled. Indefinitely. She said it wasn’t about the amount, but the lying and the stealing. She is the one who taught me the term “defining moment in parenting”, which I used on my posts about Ben. Honestly, Sarah? I think it’s gotta be big, I think it’s gotta hurt, and I think it’s gotta be accompanied with a lot of conversation and consistent follow-through. I’m sorry you’re going through this.
Damn, girl. I knew you would say that. I thought about you and Ben a lot yesterday. I thought about your description of the birthday party and the tears that flowed when you thought about how Ben was missing it all. I’ve been trying to figure out what I can take away that is just as BIG, and if I even want to go that route.
I’m not a scared person, Liz, but I think in this instance, I am scared. Scared of making wrong decisions. I don’t know that I have ever said that before, actually. I need to find a punishment that is harsh but not too harsh. Big but not detrimental. But more than anything, I need to teach the lesson. And I’m damn good at consistency and conversations about this sort of thing, but I’m daunted. Why? I guess because we’ve been through this before and nothing has changed. Jamis KNOWS how I feel about lying. I am VERY CLEAR ABOUT IT.
Sigh. I really have to figure this out. It is currently 6:55 am and Jamis will pack up his things for school in about 40 minutes. I am waiting to see if he notices that all the crayons and pencils have been taken from his bag. I am waiting to see if I have to offer a small explanation for this now, or if he’ll be clueless (I suspect he will) and it will all wait until later.
Being the first kid is tough on the kid. But is it even tougher on the parents, or what?
Everything everyone else has said is spot on. The only thing I can possibly add is be consistent. Whatever you do this time, write it down. Keep it where you can find what the reaction was. That way, when it happens again – and it does generally take a few times for our children to understand – you know how to react.
Wish I was closer. I would come take the three off your hands and you could have some you time.
Thank you, Nicki. Writing it down is a brilliant idea because I can barely remember ANYTHING anymore. And I need to have a clear vision of how I am handling the bigger issues, like lying.
Wish you were closer, too. Taking the kids off my hands would be great, but sitting and chatting over a cold beer alone with you would be even better!
Sarah
Trust and the truth is sooooooo important to me, too. But I’m not an expert by any stretch of the imagination. I’ve been interested in the suggestions here and I’ll be interested to hear how things play out with your son.
Okay, y’all. I posted an update. Please don’t be disappointed in me. And stay tuned…
xoxo
Sarah
Sarah, I’m so sorry I’m a day late on this. Right when I was reading it yesterday, I got interrupted by my daughter who, believe it or not, suddenly popped up with a “teeny little” shoplifting problem when she was about 4 or 5. Things turned up in our house mysteriously, a tiny bottle from a beauty supply store, some stuff she saw at my sister’s house, a paperweight from her teacher’s desk. Each time she had to return the item or make restitution in some way, and apologize.
Luckily or unluckily, my life gave me a lot of experience in this area. My family was pretty nuts growing up with shoplifting and lying being the most benign things we did. My older sisters routinely asked me, with my grown up handwriting, to forge notes for them to buy cigarettes and miss school. And I ended up squeaky clean honest, working in the credit and insurance industries for over twenty years.
I use those experiences – with caution – to teach my children what can happen when one lie builds on another, or when you get trapped in a bunch of lies, or how no one’s smart enough to be a good liar. I’m willing to humiliate myself, to humble myself and make myself more vulnerable as a parent, in order to teach them a lesson using my own life as an example.
It was very important to me that my mother always thought the very best of me and that she was waiting for my actions to match her image of me. My parenting is lenient and always offers a path back.
My daughter has turned out, by age 10, to have a fierce internal moral compass, but it wasn’t one she was born with. It had to be nurtured.
Okay, I’m way late on this post and see that you have others in this series posted. On my way to read those, but before I do, I’ll leave you with this thought: I was a terrible liar as a kid. And an occasional thief. (My biggest transgression was stealing John Z.’s Dallas Cowboy football helmet pencil sharpener in 1st grade. I lied and said it was my brother’s – he did have the same one – but my teacher caught me by walking across the hall to his classroom to confirm my story and he sold me out. The nerve!)
Today I am the worst liar – the worst. So obviously I grew out of it. I think it was a form of experimentation and maybe a cry for attention (my younger brother has special needs and he was born right around the time my problem flared up). But eventually my parents’ consistency that lying was unacceptable, along with loss of privileges – and maybe just time? – helped me outgrow it.
I say this not because I have any earth-shattering advice – obviously – but so that you know that Jamis is not necessarily destined for a life of crime. :)